Monday, December 3, 2012

Horse Shopping: Tucker (opinions wanted)

Confession time: in between worrying about Saga, I've been thinking about what I really want in my next horse. Here's my list so far:
  • Must be a gelding. This is non-negotiable.
  • Must be between 15.2 and 16.2 hh. Cash is 15.2 and I thought he was a little short for me (well, ok, the jumps just looked really big, you know?), so when I was shopping for Saga, I wanted something bigger. What I did not factor in is that a 16.2 hh horse is WAY harder to get on, and I'm not getting any younger. Plus, bigger horses tend to be less "catty," and Saga and Oberon are no exception. So ideally the new horse would be 15.2-16 hh.
  • Would like something between 4 and 6, with some experience but not a ton of miles. Saga and Cash were both started at 18 months (Saga as a racehorse and Cash as a reining horse) and they both have had lasting effects.
  • Must be uphill, have a short back, sturdy legs, power behind, and overall decent conformation/balance. Cash, Oberon, and Red are uphill and Cash's back is short (so short saddles bridge, lol!) and they are all very naturally balanced. Saga is a little downhill with a very looong back, and he finds it nearly impossible to balance himself and sit down.
  • Must be athletic with a good work attitude, but I don't want something that's so keen to go that I'm sitting on a stick of dynamite (Cash). I need a horse who is just as happy to go on a trail ride on a long rein as go foxhunting first flight, or bust out a nice first level dressage test.
I know, I don't want much! I've been perusing options online, but y'all, the choices are not exciting for the amount of money I have to spend. There are a ton of off-the-track TBs and QHs around here, but most of them are broken in some way. Also, I am not sure I want an ex-racehorse - I rode quite a few of them when I was looking for Saga, and I felt like I was sitting on a stick of dynamite. I'm closer to 40 than I care to admit, and I know I am mortal and can get hurt doing the crazy stuff I do with horses. I need a horse I am confident with, which was one of the reasons I liked Saga so much.  

Ok, ok, so on to the important stuff. This is Tucker. He's a 15.2 hh 5 YO TBx (I'm not going to say what the X is just yet, but you are free to guess). Both parents are registered, but he is not registerable with any of the "normal" registries. 

Here's what I like: short back, sturdy legs, short pasterns and cannons, lots of power in back, uphill build.
  
Here's what I don't like: short neck that's currently muscled upside-down (fixable), not the most refined head, upright shoulder.

Here's a video of him trotting a bit, and jumping. This was his first jump EVER - it was about 2'. I like that he didn't even take a peek at it, and he gave it a good effort (as opposed to plowing through it, like Oberon does). 


Here's his canter. I like how balanced he is, and how easily he flows.


I have a lot more video of him, but suffice it to say that he's a decent mover. He's stiff and less respectful if you work off his right side. He leads well but is a little in your lap. He HATES being tied and left alone (paws constantly, but is happy to go to work as soon as you untie him and ask him to move off). He needs work on simple stuff like picking up his feet and trailering. And here's the big kicker: he's not been backed. In fact, he's barely been handled since he was a yearling, and has been out in a pasture with 17 other horses since then. However, after his third longe session (which I did, although that's not me in the videos), we sacked him out with a saddle pad (that took 3 minutes) and put a surcingle on him (which took 5 minutes). He was fine with both and then went on to longe again, no bucking, scooting, or anything. He seems to have a good brain and none of the "baby" issues one might expect from a horse with very little handling, so I think that he could be backed within a few weeks.

If I were to get him, I would leave him with a trainer I trust (the one in the video) for 60 days to get the initial work done, including working on tying and trailering. She has already backed Tucker's brother, and I really love what she did with him. In 60 days he has gone from being pretty much just like Tucker to being a solid, respectful citizen, and I have no doubt that Tucker would turn out similarly. As for why I am not looking at the brother, he's currently injured, RF, and it's too much like Saga's injuries for me to even consider him.

So, am I crazy to even consider an unbacked 5 year old? And how much would YOU pay for a horse like this? 

23 comments:

  1. Hmmm...he's cute but I'm just not into the baby thing I guess. Such a crap shoot and because of this, I wouldn't pay more than $1500 (and I think that's even a little high). Now I might be willing to change my stance a bit if I knew the parental history (not breeding because I don't care about that) - what have they done with their lives, etc.

    However, at the end of the day, all that matters is what you think and want. Good luck!!! :-)

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    1. I agree, the baby thing isn't me either. However, for what I can pay, the options here aren't great. Do you know how many downhill fugly quarter horses there are around here?!?!

      As for breeding, Dad is a national champion and on the TB side, Grandad won the Kentucky Derby. Mom never raced. So not the best scorecard ever.

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    2. Haha! Yup, I can only imagine what the QHs look like. Not super impressed by the parental history so I would pass. I would keep looking for something that you can at least sit on - too many what ifs with an unbacked 5 yr old. And while I think 18 months is a little young, I think 5 is a little old. I'm not saying he should be jumping training level XC but he should have been out and about by now. That's the other thing - I want to know how my horse is going to react to a new environment. What if he's a freak when he leaves the property? That would kind of be a bummer...

      As per the below, I say TB...;)

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  2. Sooo... my horse is a carbon copy of the above poster's and I love him dearly. That said, our feedback is going to be pretty much the same, but it's more like it's coming from the same person.

    He looks drafty. Is freisian the other side of that breeding? This is coming from a TB lover, but I can.not.stand. the draft brain. It's a personal thing, but I hate the way they think, the way they throw themselves around, and their big, stupid feet.

    You aren't buying a horse for me, so it's irrelevant. However, you are coming off a TB so keep those breed differences in mind.

    If you like the going brother, I'd go with it. If you are annoyed by that stupid spook/lock up thing that drafts do, I'd pass. You aren't going to change the breeding.

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    1. You're right, the other half is drafty. And I haven't had much experience with the drafty breeds other than Oberon, who most definitely does the spook/stop dead/refuse to go forward thing. On the other hand... I would rather that than a horse that spins and bolts. I just don't bounce well anymore.

      And actually, Saga is full-blooded QH, not TB (he's not even Appendix). Cash is also half QH, so I'm definitely not used to the TB mentality. I realize they are not all the same, but the OTTBs that I rode when I was looking for Saga were - without exception - needy and high as kites. I am definitely not in that place in my life - I'd rather have to kick a little than say "whoa, easy" for and entire foxhunt or XC run.

      And those big stupid feet? Love them! Thick soles, massive hoof walls... they're a barefoot lover's dream! ;)

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    2. Hmmm...well, it's probably tough in TX to find a nice OTTB but I will tell you Charlie is seriously the easiest thing since sliced bread. Now, he is a bit of a hard keeper food wise but I think I have that figured out and in my experience with OTTBs, you won't find a breed with a bigger heart (I'm sure SB will agree). Depending on what your budget is, I think you could find a way nicer OTTB for a lot less than what you would pay for Tucker. And Charlie is honestly the pokiest horse I have ever sat on. I will concede the point on the hoof-thing - TBs have crappy feet. ;)

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    3. There's a local TB organization that finds OTTBs new homes, and they have a web site that lists all the available horses. Every. single. one is either a) too old, or b) broken in some way. Bone chips, racing ankles, bowed tendons, you name it. Thanks, but no. Same goes for the racing quarter horses - they are only getting rid of them if they are broken. :(

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  3. He's beautiful! Seems quiet which I like. Since he hasn't been trained much, I wouldn't expect to pay very much for him. But do you "click" with him? That's the important part! Personally, I wouldn't mind having him either. :)

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    1. SL, it's a little hard to tell about "clicking" with him. He hasn't been handled much, so he's not terribly interactive with people. Cash was like that when I first got him - withdrawn - so I'm OK with that, since he's not sour. He's respectful and seems to have a good attitude about work, so that's a starting point.

      It's just so hard to tell!!!

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  4. I think he's loooveeellyy. His neck is a bit short and upside down, but with some dressage work he can learn to stretch over the topline and open his gullet. Love the length of back. Love his hindquarters LOVE his hock action. Shoulder isn't too bad considering he's a drafty. He still has some reach, and his movement is plenty nice for dressage.

    Babies can be difficult, but he looks like he has a good brain, and heck- he's pretty quiet for that small amount of handling. Definitely not very high strung.

    If I were you, I'd be seriously considering this boy.

    In Australia, he would go for anywhere between 3-5k and that would be reasonable. Our prices are ridiculous, though.

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    1. LL, you're spot on about his neck, and combined with the shoulder, I wonder if he'll be able to get his legs out of the way to jump? Only time will tell. Thanks for your other comments though!

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  5. I am going to go with TB/Draft cross, probably Perch. From the standing pictures, it looks like he is not finished growing.

    I do not care for his conformation. His hind legs are very straight and his large neck, head, and chest rest well in front of his front legs, which are placed at an angle under his body (especially in the first picture). In the second picture, he appears to be weighting the front of his foot more than the heels and his hind legs are camped out. I realize that young horses are always on the forehand, but despite the appearance of being uphill at the withers, this guy's conformation is functionally downhill and he is heavy. This concerns me with regard to longevity and suitability for what you want to do. His movement is not uphill and I do not like how he trots after the 2 foot jump. In my opinion, a horse with some talent for jumping naturally picks up the canter after a jump even early on.

    I think you should keep looking. Sure you can work through some of the things that I mentioned (and you mentioned like the neck), but it is always easier to start with the best possible package. He is probably a very nice, young horse, but I would not settle so soon. You are in this for the long haul!

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    1. Your thoughts about trotting after the jump are interesting - I was actually happy to see him stay balanced and trot after the jump instead of falling into a canter! LOL! I am curious about your "functionally downhill" could you explain?

      And don't worry, I'm definitely looking at other horses. Just wait till I show you what the other options are! (shudder!)

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    2. In the first picture, his croup is lower than his withers which is usually described as uphill (To me, he looks level and downhill behind the wither in the second picture.), but his posture (the stuff I described) is downhill. When he moves, he continues to move like downhill horse (and this is evident in his neck shape), despite the level of his withers and croup. The horse's posture, balance, and way of going can definitely be improved, but I think that I would keep looking for a horse that exhibited a more uphill posture and balance. Even a young horse can demonstrate this. I would call that functionally uphill.

      Horses who are built downhill can learn to move in an uphill balance relative to their build.

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  6. I was going to guess draftx too, and I love drafts! They are much more athletic than people give them credit for. They are (generally) of good character and hold up well.

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    1. Oberon, who is a STBxPerch, constantly amazes me about how maneuverable he is. He's got better lateral movements than almost any horse I've ever ridden, and the nicest medium trot. Sure, it takes a little bit to get him motivated to do it, but it's in there.

      And I think you might be a leeetle biased toward drafts, Terry! ;)

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  7. If it's not friesian I would guess percheron. I LOVE the draft brain. Seriously quiet, remembers well, can be stubborn but SMART. And yeah, sometimes they aren't too careful where they stick their feet, but it's not that bad.

    I have started a couple under saddle, I probably wouldn't own one just because OTTB's and more energetic horses are more my cup of tea, but I do enjoy them.

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    1. Oh, and for an unregisterable unbacked 5yo I probably wouldn't pay more than $1500, unless there was something extraordinary about it.

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    2. ER, yup, Dad's a Perch. And he does seem to be a smart boy - after just three 20 minute longe sessions, he was doing WTC both directions on command. Another week and he'd be a pro. And while I want something more energetic, I don't want tooooo much energy... if you know what I mean!

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  8. I'd go for an unbacked 5 yo with a good brain over an older more "experienced" horse any day of the week. I firmly believe that their characters don't really change - my maniac eventer was a maniac till the day he died (I exaggerate, but it made no difference whether he was 10, 15 or 25) and Felix, whom I had effectively as an unbacked 4 yo was a genius from day one.

    I also like not having to deal with other people's "training" and agree with you about the health problems of many OTTBs. Something young and unbroken (in every sense of the word!) for me, every time. Price wise I'm no help but horses certainly aren't selling over here so I would think you can offer what you like.

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    1. Nic, that's one of the issues I'm seeing with horses that are under saddle is that I don't like their training. While I think that 5 is a bit old for not being ridden, I think it's better than being raced or in a futurity at 2 or 3. And I agree that character doesn't change - Cash is still as keen to go at 24 as he was at 8. I want something with a sound mind for sure!

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  9. I wouldn't buy a horse I couldn't ride and decide if I liked the feel...not at my age (55). That is the biggest thing I have found over the years--the feel of a horse when I ride him means more than anything else. And its unique to the pairing of horse and rider...some might not like a "feel" that I like very much. I have bought (and trained myself) many an "unbacked" horse in my youth, and many that I just loved when I bought them, I did NOT love when I was finally "using" them. And then, some worked out well. So I think its too much of a crap shoot.

    All mine are QHs of an old fashioned type and they are good trail horses and good cowhorses, but can't jump for beans (we tried). They ARE really good minded and laid back in temperament. My preferred method when it comes to buying a horse is to buy one I have "known" for awhile and liked. I bought Henry and Sunny this way. Henry wasn't for sale but I offered a good price and was able to buy him. Both were older, but I knew them to be consistently sound and reliable. And I liked the "feel" of them when I rode them.

    I hope you find just the perfect horse for you. You deserve him! (And I agree about the gelding part being non-negotiable.)

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    1. Laura, I know EXACTLY what you mean about wanting to "feel" how they go before you buy. In fact I have considered offering to pay for training for a month to get him backed, then ride him to see if I like how he goes. If not, then I'm only out one month of training and she's got a horse who's now under saddle. Of course, I'm pretty sure I could ride that canter alllll day!

      As for buying a horse that I've "known" for a while, all of the ones that fit that bill are going to be in the 30K+ category. I'm not even sure I would spend money like that on a horse even if I had it, you know? So I'm pretty much down to buying something young and green.

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